IPA Pronunciation of Unvoiced Consonants Seems Like Voiced









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This might be a trivial question, but it seems to me that certain unvoiced example pronunciations for IPA sounds resemble the voiced one. For example, on this site:



http://www.internationalphoneticalphabet.org/ipa-sounds/ipa-chart-with-sounds/



The bilabial plosives p and b seem indistinguishable for me—they both sound like a voiced consonant; however, other pairs such as s and z are clearly distinguishable for me—s is unvoiced and z is voiced.



Is it just me who somehow can't tell the difference between the p b and t d pair? Perhaps it's just a characteristic of plosive consonants that the unvoiced sounds like a voiced consonant?










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    up vote
    3
    down vote

    favorite
    1












    This might be a trivial question, but it seems to me that certain unvoiced example pronunciations for IPA sounds resemble the voiced one. For example, on this site:



    http://www.internationalphoneticalphabet.org/ipa-sounds/ipa-chart-with-sounds/



    The bilabial plosives p and b seem indistinguishable for me—they both sound like a voiced consonant; however, other pairs such as s and z are clearly distinguishable for me—s is unvoiced and z is voiced.



    Is it just me who somehow can't tell the difference between the p b and t d pair? Perhaps it's just a characteristic of plosive consonants that the unvoiced sounds like a voiced consonant?










    share|improve this question

























      up vote
      3
      down vote

      favorite
      1









      up vote
      3
      down vote

      favorite
      1






      1





      This might be a trivial question, but it seems to me that certain unvoiced example pronunciations for IPA sounds resemble the voiced one. For example, on this site:



      http://www.internationalphoneticalphabet.org/ipa-sounds/ipa-chart-with-sounds/



      The bilabial plosives p and b seem indistinguishable for me—they both sound like a voiced consonant; however, other pairs such as s and z are clearly distinguishable for me—s is unvoiced and z is voiced.



      Is it just me who somehow can't tell the difference between the p b and t d pair? Perhaps it's just a characteristic of plosive consonants that the unvoiced sounds like a voiced consonant?










      share|improve this question















      This might be a trivial question, but it seems to me that certain unvoiced example pronunciations for IPA sounds resemble the voiced one. For example, on this site:



      http://www.internationalphoneticalphabet.org/ipa-sounds/ipa-chart-with-sounds/



      The bilabial plosives p and b seem indistinguishable for me—they both sound like a voiced consonant; however, other pairs such as s and z are clearly distinguishable for me—s is unvoiced and z is voiced.



      Is it just me who somehow can't tell the difference between the p b and t d pair? Perhaps it's just a characteristic of plosive consonants that the unvoiced sounds like a voiced consonant?







      phonology ipa voicing






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      edited Nov 12 at 14:57









      jknappen

      10.4k22751




      10.4k22751










      asked Nov 12 at 0:30









      Peter Li

      184




      184




















          2 Answers
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          up vote
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          down vote



          accepted










          Typically, when a person cannot hear a difference between a voiceless stop and a voiced stop, as pronounced according to IPA principles, that is because the voiceless stop is unaspirated, and the person listening is a speaker of English. In English, syllable-initial pre-stress /p,t,k/ are aspirated. Furthermore, voiced stops in that position are not fully voiced and for many speakers are actually unvoiced. So a phonetic transcription of "pin" would be [pʰɪn], and "bin" would be [pɪn]. The consonants in those performances are not pronounced as English consonants.



          If you try to hear those sounds "conceptually", that is by categorizing the sound as "p" or "b", and your reference point is English, what you are hearing is not English "p" or "b", and they both sound close enough to "b" that you think they are the same, namely "b". An alternative approach would be to compare that IPA performance of p vs. b and ask, do these really sound exactly alike? I would also suggest using this chart or this chart, which are performed by acknowledged phonetic experts. If you absolutely can't hear any difference in [ata] and [ada], that's an interesting problem – usually people can hear that they are different, the problem is just how to classify what you hear.



          Speakers of other languages have different experiences. For example, speakers of Hindi typically have no problem getting the distinction since their language has unaspirated and fully voiced stops.






          share|improve this answer
















          • 2




            Another language whose unaspirated voiceless plosives tend to be misperceived by English speakers: Mandarin. Consider the word tao, pronounced [tâu]. To an English speaker like me it initially sounds like "dao" and is often transliterated that way — the fact that it doesn't qualify as /t/ being interesting evidence that we perceive aspiration as more distinctive than voicing for those plosives...
            – Luke Sawczak
            Nov 12 at 1:12







          • 1




            For Ladefoged's recordings, I recommend this chart over that one which doesn't work properly with most modern devices. You can listen to Esling there too, so I recommend recommending it instead of those.
            – Nardog
            Nov 12 at 3:00











          • Thanks for your response! They sounded alike initially even after hearing them pronounced on the sites you recommended, but after hearing my own pronunciation of pin and bin and of pā and bā in mandarin while trying to eliminate the difference in aspiration, I think I am getting the distinction. It somehow dawned upon me with minutes of recording and attentive listening that the p and b are different. I appreciate your help!
            – Peter Li
            Nov 12 at 5:34






          • 1




            @LukeSawczak Pardon my laughter when I first saw your comment. I am, in fact, a native mandarin speaker who lived in Beijing, China for the first 14 years of my life with no difficulty communicating with people, and I do not know how I failed to transfer my Chinese phonetic abilities to English (maybe the immersion method is the culprit), but trying to pronounce pā and bā in Chinese, record them, and listen to my own pronunciation helped a lot. Thanks for your response!
            – Peter Li
            Nov 12 at 5:42

















          up vote
          1
          down vote













          Many native English speakers have the same reaction as you, because they use the fortis/lenis (strong/weak) articulatory difference to distinguish [pa]/[ba], not the unvoiced/voiced difference. This leaves them free to devoice the [b], which in fact they often do, since it is less effort. So, it is likely that your pronunciation of "bah" has a devoiced "b", which makes it [pa], really.



          The reason /b/ tends to be phonetic [p] is that there is no easy way to maintain the voicing of [b], because the air that must continue to escape through the glottis has no way to get out of your mouth. One thing you can do, which I refer to as the Bing Crosby maneuver, is to loosen the muscles of your cheeks to let them puff out, so the oral cavity has room to contain the extra air for the brief time the [b] needs it. Otherwise, the increasing air pressure in the mouth will choke off the voicing in the glottis by slowing the flow of air there. Dropping the jaw or the larynx has a similar effect.






          share|improve this answer






















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            2 Answers
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            up vote
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            accepted










            Typically, when a person cannot hear a difference between a voiceless stop and a voiced stop, as pronounced according to IPA principles, that is because the voiceless stop is unaspirated, and the person listening is a speaker of English. In English, syllable-initial pre-stress /p,t,k/ are aspirated. Furthermore, voiced stops in that position are not fully voiced and for many speakers are actually unvoiced. So a phonetic transcription of "pin" would be [pʰɪn], and "bin" would be [pɪn]. The consonants in those performances are not pronounced as English consonants.



            If you try to hear those sounds "conceptually", that is by categorizing the sound as "p" or "b", and your reference point is English, what you are hearing is not English "p" or "b", and they both sound close enough to "b" that you think they are the same, namely "b". An alternative approach would be to compare that IPA performance of p vs. b and ask, do these really sound exactly alike? I would also suggest using this chart or this chart, which are performed by acknowledged phonetic experts. If you absolutely can't hear any difference in [ata] and [ada], that's an interesting problem – usually people can hear that they are different, the problem is just how to classify what you hear.



            Speakers of other languages have different experiences. For example, speakers of Hindi typically have no problem getting the distinction since their language has unaspirated and fully voiced stops.






            share|improve this answer
















            • 2




              Another language whose unaspirated voiceless plosives tend to be misperceived by English speakers: Mandarin. Consider the word tao, pronounced [tâu]. To an English speaker like me it initially sounds like "dao" and is often transliterated that way — the fact that it doesn't qualify as /t/ being interesting evidence that we perceive aspiration as more distinctive than voicing for those plosives...
              – Luke Sawczak
              Nov 12 at 1:12







            • 1




              For Ladefoged's recordings, I recommend this chart over that one which doesn't work properly with most modern devices. You can listen to Esling there too, so I recommend recommending it instead of those.
              – Nardog
              Nov 12 at 3:00











            • Thanks for your response! They sounded alike initially even after hearing them pronounced on the sites you recommended, but after hearing my own pronunciation of pin and bin and of pā and bā in mandarin while trying to eliminate the difference in aspiration, I think I am getting the distinction. It somehow dawned upon me with minutes of recording and attentive listening that the p and b are different. I appreciate your help!
              – Peter Li
              Nov 12 at 5:34






            • 1




              @LukeSawczak Pardon my laughter when I first saw your comment. I am, in fact, a native mandarin speaker who lived in Beijing, China for the first 14 years of my life with no difficulty communicating with people, and I do not know how I failed to transfer my Chinese phonetic abilities to English (maybe the immersion method is the culprit), but trying to pronounce pā and bā in Chinese, record them, and listen to my own pronunciation helped a lot. Thanks for your response!
              – Peter Li
              Nov 12 at 5:42














            up vote
            7
            down vote



            accepted










            Typically, when a person cannot hear a difference between a voiceless stop and a voiced stop, as pronounced according to IPA principles, that is because the voiceless stop is unaspirated, and the person listening is a speaker of English. In English, syllable-initial pre-stress /p,t,k/ are aspirated. Furthermore, voiced stops in that position are not fully voiced and for many speakers are actually unvoiced. So a phonetic transcription of "pin" would be [pʰɪn], and "bin" would be [pɪn]. The consonants in those performances are not pronounced as English consonants.



            If you try to hear those sounds "conceptually", that is by categorizing the sound as "p" or "b", and your reference point is English, what you are hearing is not English "p" or "b", and they both sound close enough to "b" that you think they are the same, namely "b". An alternative approach would be to compare that IPA performance of p vs. b and ask, do these really sound exactly alike? I would also suggest using this chart or this chart, which are performed by acknowledged phonetic experts. If you absolutely can't hear any difference in [ata] and [ada], that's an interesting problem – usually people can hear that they are different, the problem is just how to classify what you hear.



            Speakers of other languages have different experiences. For example, speakers of Hindi typically have no problem getting the distinction since their language has unaspirated and fully voiced stops.






            share|improve this answer
















            • 2




              Another language whose unaspirated voiceless plosives tend to be misperceived by English speakers: Mandarin. Consider the word tao, pronounced [tâu]. To an English speaker like me it initially sounds like "dao" and is often transliterated that way — the fact that it doesn't qualify as /t/ being interesting evidence that we perceive aspiration as more distinctive than voicing for those plosives...
              – Luke Sawczak
              Nov 12 at 1:12







            • 1




              For Ladefoged's recordings, I recommend this chart over that one which doesn't work properly with most modern devices. You can listen to Esling there too, so I recommend recommending it instead of those.
              – Nardog
              Nov 12 at 3:00











            • Thanks for your response! They sounded alike initially even after hearing them pronounced on the sites you recommended, but after hearing my own pronunciation of pin and bin and of pā and bā in mandarin while trying to eliminate the difference in aspiration, I think I am getting the distinction. It somehow dawned upon me with minutes of recording and attentive listening that the p and b are different. I appreciate your help!
              – Peter Li
              Nov 12 at 5:34






            • 1




              @LukeSawczak Pardon my laughter when I first saw your comment. I am, in fact, a native mandarin speaker who lived in Beijing, China for the first 14 years of my life with no difficulty communicating with people, and I do not know how I failed to transfer my Chinese phonetic abilities to English (maybe the immersion method is the culprit), but trying to pronounce pā and bā in Chinese, record them, and listen to my own pronunciation helped a lot. Thanks for your response!
              – Peter Li
              Nov 12 at 5:42












            up vote
            7
            down vote



            accepted







            up vote
            7
            down vote



            accepted






            Typically, when a person cannot hear a difference between a voiceless stop and a voiced stop, as pronounced according to IPA principles, that is because the voiceless stop is unaspirated, and the person listening is a speaker of English. In English, syllable-initial pre-stress /p,t,k/ are aspirated. Furthermore, voiced stops in that position are not fully voiced and for many speakers are actually unvoiced. So a phonetic transcription of "pin" would be [pʰɪn], and "bin" would be [pɪn]. The consonants in those performances are not pronounced as English consonants.



            If you try to hear those sounds "conceptually", that is by categorizing the sound as "p" or "b", and your reference point is English, what you are hearing is not English "p" or "b", and they both sound close enough to "b" that you think they are the same, namely "b". An alternative approach would be to compare that IPA performance of p vs. b and ask, do these really sound exactly alike? I would also suggest using this chart or this chart, which are performed by acknowledged phonetic experts. If you absolutely can't hear any difference in [ata] and [ada], that's an interesting problem – usually people can hear that they are different, the problem is just how to classify what you hear.



            Speakers of other languages have different experiences. For example, speakers of Hindi typically have no problem getting the distinction since their language has unaspirated and fully voiced stops.






            share|improve this answer












            Typically, when a person cannot hear a difference between a voiceless stop and a voiced stop, as pronounced according to IPA principles, that is because the voiceless stop is unaspirated, and the person listening is a speaker of English. In English, syllable-initial pre-stress /p,t,k/ are aspirated. Furthermore, voiced stops in that position are not fully voiced and for many speakers are actually unvoiced. So a phonetic transcription of "pin" would be [pʰɪn], and "bin" would be [pɪn]. The consonants in those performances are not pronounced as English consonants.



            If you try to hear those sounds "conceptually", that is by categorizing the sound as "p" or "b", and your reference point is English, what you are hearing is not English "p" or "b", and they both sound close enough to "b" that you think they are the same, namely "b". An alternative approach would be to compare that IPA performance of p vs. b and ask, do these really sound exactly alike? I would also suggest using this chart or this chart, which are performed by acknowledged phonetic experts. If you absolutely can't hear any difference in [ata] and [ada], that's an interesting problem – usually people can hear that they are different, the problem is just how to classify what you hear.



            Speakers of other languages have different experiences. For example, speakers of Hindi typically have no problem getting the distinction since their language has unaspirated and fully voiced stops.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered Nov 12 at 0:53









            user6726

            33.1k12061




            33.1k12061







            • 2




              Another language whose unaspirated voiceless plosives tend to be misperceived by English speakers: Mandarin. Consider the word tao, pronounced [tâu]. To an English speaker like me it initially sounds like "dao" and is often transliterated that way — the fact that it doesn't qualify as /t/ being interesting evidence that we perceive aspiration as more distinctive than voicing for those plosives...
              – Luke Sawczak
              Nov 12 at 1:12







            • 1




              For Ladefoged's recordings, I recommend this chart over that one which doesn't work properly with most modern devices. You can listen to Esling there too, so I recommend recommending it instead of those.
              – Nardog
              Nov 12 at 3:00











            • Thanks for your response! They sounded alike initially even after hearing them pronounced on the sites you recommended, but after hearing my own pronunciation of pin and bin and of pā and bā in mandarin while trying to eliminate the difference in aspiration, I think I am getting the distinction. It somehow dawned upon me with minutes of recording and attentive listening that the p and b are different. I appreciate your help!
              – Peter Li
              Nov 12 at 5:34






            • 1




              @LukeSawczak Pardon my laughter when I first saw your comment. I am, in fact, a native mandarin speaker who lived in Beijing, China for the first 14 years of my life with no difficulty communicating with people, and I do not know how I failed to transfer my Chinese phonetic abilities to English (maybe the immersion method is the culprit), but trying to pronounce pā and bā in Chinese, record them, and listen to my own pronunciation helped a lot. Thanks for your response!
              – Peter Li
              Nov 12 at 5:42












            • 2




              Another language whose unaspirated voiceless plosives tend to be misperceived by English speakers: Mandarin. Consider the word tao, pronounced [tâu]. To an English speaker like me it initially sounds like "dao" and is often transliterated that way — the fact that it doesn't qualify as /t/ being interesting evidence that we perceive aspiration as more distinctive than voicing for those plosives...
              – Luke Sawczak
              Nov 12 at 1:12







            • 1




              For Ladefoged's recordings, I recommend this chart over that one which doesn't work properly with most modern devices. You can listen to Esling there too, so I recommend recommending it instead of those.
              – Nardog
              Nov 12 at 3:00











            • Thanks for your response! They sounded alike initially even after hearing them pronounced on the sites you recommended, but after hearing my own pronunciation of pin and bin and of pā and bā in mandarin while trying to eliminate the difference in aspiration, I think I am getting the distinction. It somehow dawned upon me with minutes of recording and attentive listening that the p and b are different. I appreciate your help!
              – Peter Li
              Nov 12 at 5:34






            • 1




              @LukeSawczak Pardon my laughter when I first saw your comment. I am, in fact, a native mandarin speaker who lived in Beijing, China for the first 14 years of my life with no difficulty communicating with people, and I do not know how I failed to transfer my Chinese phonetic abilities to English (maybe the immersion method is the culprit), but trying to pronounce pā and bā in Chinese, record them, and listen to my own pronunciation helped a lot. Thanks for your response!
              – Peter Li
              Nov 12 at 5:42







            2




            2




            Another language whose unaspirated voiceless plosives tend to be misperceived by English speakers: Mandarin. Consider the word tao, pronounced [tâu]. To an English speaker like me it initially sounds like "dao" and is often transliterated that way — the fact that it doesn't qualify as /t/ being interesting evidence that we perceive aspiration as more distinctive than voicing for those plosives...
            – Luke Sawczak
            Nov 12 at 1:12





            Another language whose unaspirated voiceless plosives tend to be misperceived by English speakers: Mandarin. Consider the word tao, pronounced [tâu]. To an English speaker like me it initially sounds like "dao" and is often transliterated that way — the fact that it doesn't qualify as /t/ being interesting evidence that we perceive aspiration as more distinctive than voicing for those plosives...
            – Luke Sawczak
            Nov 12 at 1:12





            1




            1




            For Ladefoged's recordings, I recommend this chart over that one which doesn't work properly with most modern devices. You can listen to Esling there too, so I recommend recommending it instead of those.
            – Nardog
            Nov 12 at 3:00





            For Ladefoged's recordings, I recommend this chart over that one which doesn't work properly with most modern devices. You can listen to Esling there too, so I recommend recommending it instead of those.
            – Nardog
            Nov 12 at 3:00













            Thanks for your response! They sounded alike initially even after hearing them pronounced on the sites you recommended, but after hearing my own pronunciation of pin and bin and of pā and bā in mandarin while trying to eliminate the difference in aspiration, I think I am getting the distinction. It somehow dawned upon me with minutes of recording and attentive listening that the p and b are different. I appreciate your help!
            – Peter Li
            Nov 12 at 5:34




            Thanks for your response! They sounded alike initially even after hearing them pronounced on the sites you recommended, but after hearing my own pronunciation of pin and bin and of pā and bā in mandarin while trying to eliminate the difference in aspiration, I think I am getting the distinction. It somehow dawned upon me with minutes of recording and attentive listening that the p and b are different. I appreciate your help!
            – Peter Li
            Nov 12 at 5:34




            1




            1




            @LukeSawczak Pardon my laughter when I first saw your comment. I am, in fact, a native mandarin speaker who lived in Beijing, China for the first 14 years of my life with no difficulty communicating with people, and I do not know how I failed to transfer my Chinese phonetic abilities to English (maybe the immersion method is the culprit), but trying to pronounce pā and bā in Chinese, record them, and listen to my own pronunciation helped a lot. Thanks for your response!
            – Peter Li
            Nov 12 at 5:42




            @LukeSawczak Pardon my laughter when I first saw your comment. I am, in fact, a native mandarin speaker who lived in Beijing, China for the first 14 years of my life with no difficulty communicating with people, and I do not know how I failed to transfer my Chinese phonetic abilities to English (maybe the immersion method is the culprit), but trying to pronounce pā and bā in Chinese, record them, and listen to my own pronunciation helped a lot. Thanks for your response!
            – Peter Li
            Nov 12 at 5:42










            up vote
            1
            down vote













            Many native English speakers have the same reaction as you, because they use the fortis/lenis (strong/weak) articulatory difference to distinguish [pa]/[ba], not the unvoiced/voiced difference. This leaves them free to devoice the [b], which in fact they often do, since it is less effort. So, it is likely that your pronunciation of "bah" has a devoiced "b", which makes it [pa], really.



            The reason /b/ tends to be phonetic [p] is that there is no easy way to maintain the voicing of [b], because the air that must continue to escape through the glottis has no way to get out of your mouth. One thing you can do, which I refer to as the Bing Crosby maneuver, is to loosen the muscles of your cheeks to let them puff out, so the oral cavity has room to contain the extra air for the brief time the [b] needs it. Otherwise, the increasing air pressure in the mouth will choke off the voicing in the glottis by slowing the flow of air there. Dropping the jaw or the larynx has a similar effect.






            share|improve this answer


























              up vote
              1
              down vote













              Many native English speakers have the same reaction as you, because they use the fortis/lenis (strong/weak) articulatory difference to distinguish [pa]/[ba], not the unvoiced/voiced difference. This leaves them free to devoice the [b], which in fact they often do, since it is less effort. So, it is likely that your pronunciation of "bah" has a devoiced "b", which makes it [pa], really.



              The reason /b/ tends to be phonetic [p] is that there is no easy way to maintain the voicing of [b], because the air that must continue to escape through the glottis has no way to get out of your mouth. One thing you can do, which I refer to as the Bing Crosby maneuver, is to loosen the muscles of your cheeks to let them puff out, so the oral cavity has room to contain the extra air for the brief time the [b] needs it. Otherwise, the increasing air pressure in the mouth will choke off the voicing in the glottis by slowing the flow of air there. Dropping the jaw or the larynx has a similar effect.






              share|improve this answer
























                up vote
                1
                down vote










                up vote
                1
                down vote









                Many native English speakers have the same reaction as you, because they use the fortis/lenis (strong/weak) articulatory difference to distinguish [pa]/[ba], not the unvoiced/voiced difference. This leaves them free to devoice the [b], which in fact they often do, since it is less effort. So, it is likely that your pronunciation of "bah" has a devoiced "b", which makes it [pa], really.



                The reason /b/ tends to be phonetic [p] is that there is no easy way to maintain the voicing of [b], because the air that must continue to escape through the glottis has no way to get out of your mouth. One thing you can do, which I refer to as the Bing Crosby maneuver, is to loosen the muscles of your cheeks to let them puff out, so the oral cavity has room to contain the extra air for the brief time the [b] needs it. Otherwise, the increasing air pressure in the mouth will choke off the voicing in the glottis by slowing the flow of air there. Dropping the jaw or the larynx has a similar effect.






                share|improve this answer














                Many native English speakers have the same reaction as you, because they use the fortis/lenis (strong/weak) articulatory difference to distinguish [pa]/[ba], not the unvoiced/voiced difference. This leaves them free to devoice the [b], which in fact they often do, since it is less effort. So, it is likely that your pronunciation of "bah" has a devoiced "b", which makes it [pa], really.



                The reason /b/ tends to be phonetic [p] is that there is no easy way to maintain the voicing of [b], because the air that must continue to escape through the glottis has no way to get out of your mouth. One thing you can do, which I refer to as the Bing Crosby maneuver, is to loosen the muscles of your cheeks to let them puff out, so the oral cavity has room to contain the extra air for the brief time the [b] needs it. Otherwise, the increasing air pressure in the mouth will choke off the voicing in the glottis by slowing the flow of air there. Dropping the jaw or the larynx has a similar effect.







                share|improve this answer














                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer








                edited Nov 12 at 14:56









                V2Blast

                1054




                1054










                answered Nov 12 at 1:07









                Greg Lee

                8,7931717




                8,7931717



























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