Probability concepts - how can balls of same colour be distinguishable?










3












$begingroup$



An urn contains $6$ white and $4$ black balls. A fair die is rolled
and that number of balls are chosen from the urn. Find the probability
that the balls selected are white.




I know the basic way to go about solving the problem.



Let $W$ be the event of finally drawing all white balls. Let $P(n)$ denote the probability of appearance of $n$ on the die.



We want:
$$P(W) = P(1)P(Wmid 1)+ P(2)P(Wmid 2)+dots implies P(W) = dfrac16left(sum_i=1^6P(Wmid i)right)$$



Now, I am actually facing trouble in computing $P(W/i)$. I saw author's method and in it he has used $P(Wmid i) = dfrac^6C_i^10C_i$



but I fail to understand how that can be true when all white balls are identical and all black balls are identical.



Here, $^6C_i$ denotes the combination of $i$ different things from 6 different objects, doesn't it? How can that be used here?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    Doesn't it look pretty much as a Hypergeometric distribution were the number of draws is a rv? $K=6$, $N=10$, $n=k$ is a random variable. Does it make any sense to you?
    $endgroup$
    – Ramiro Scorolli
    Nov 14 '18 at 8:13










  • $begingroup$
    I don't know what's a hypergeometric distribution @RamiroScorolli
    $endgroup$
    – Abcd
    Nov 14 '18 at 8:13










  • $begingroup$
    Basically you have $N$ balls(10 balls in total), $K$ represent success (6 white balls), you draw $n$ balls (where n is the number obtained with the dice) and you are expecting $k$ successes. (basically n cause you want all to be white). en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergeometric_distribution
    $endgroup$
    – Ramiro Scorolli
    Nov 14 '18 at 8:20










  • $begingroup$
    I'm not completely sure but I think that this could be the $P(W/I)$ you are looking for
    $endgroup$
    – Ramiro Scorolli
    Nov 14 '18 at 8:20










  • $begingroup$
    How about something similar with a smaller amount of balls? If you have two identical black balls and an otherwise similar but white ball in a bag, and you pull out one in random, what's the probability of getting a black ball? Is it 1/2 because there are only two colors (and you couldn't tell the black ones apart)?
    $endgroup$
    – ilkkachu
    Nov 14 '18 at 14:43















3












$begingroup$



An urn contains $6$ white and $4$ black balls. A fair die is rolled
and that number of balls are chosen from the urn. Find the probability
that the balls selected are white.




I know the basic way to go about solving the problem.



Let $W$ be the event of finally drawing all white balls. Let $P(n)$ denote the probability of appearance of $n$ on the die.



We want:
$$P(W) = P(1)P(Wmid 1)+ P(2)P(Wmid 2)+dots implies P(W) = dfrac16left(sum_i=1^6P(Wmid i)right)$$



Now, I am actually facing trouble in computing $P(W/i)$. I saw author's method and in it he has used $P(Wmid i) = dfrac^6C_i^10C_i$



but I fail to understand how that can be true when all white balls are identical and all black balls are identical.



Here, $^6C_i$ denotes the combination of $i$ different things from 6 different objects, doesn't it? How can that be used here?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    Doesn't it look pretty much as a Hypergeometric distribution were the number of draws is a rv? $K=6$, $N=10$, $n=k$ is a random variable. Does it make any sense to you?
    $endgroup$
    – Ramiro Scorolli
    Nov 14 '18 at 8:13










  • $begingroup$
    I don't know what's a hypergeometric distribution @RamiroScorolli
    $endgroup$
    – Abcd
    Nov 14 '18 at 8:13










  • $begingroup$
    Basically you have $N$ balls(10 balls in total), $K$ represent success (6 white balls), you draw $n$ balls (where n is the number obtained with the dice) and you are expecting $k$ successes. (basically n cause you want all to be white). en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergeometric_distribution
    $endgroup$
    – Ramiro Scorolli
    Nov 14 '18 at 8:20










  • $begingroup$
    I'm not completely sure but I think that this could be the $P(W/I)$ you are looking for
    $endgroup$
    – Ramiro Scorolli
    Nov 14 '18 at 8:20










  • $begingroup$
    How about something similar with a smaller amount of balls? If you have two identical black balls and an otherwise similar but white ball in a bag, and you pull out one in random, what's the probability of getting a black ball? Is it 1/2 because there are only two colors (and you couldn't tell the black ones apart)?
    $endgroup$
    – ilkkachu
    Nov 14 '18 at 14:43













3












3








3





$begingroup$



An urn contains $6$ white and $4$ black balls. A fair die is rolled
and that number of balls are chosen from the urn. Find the probability
that the balls selected are white.




I know the basic way to go about solving the problem.



Let $W$ be the event of finally drawing all white balls. Let $P(n)$ denote the probability of appearance of $n$ on the die.



We want:
$$P(W) = P(1)P(Wmid 1)+ P(2)P(Wmid 2)+dots implies P(W) = dfrac16left(sum_i=1^6P(Wmid i)right)$$



Now, I am actually facing trouble in computing $P(W/i)$. I saw author's method and in it he has used $P(Wmid i) = dfrac^6C_i^10C_i$



but I fail to understand how that can be true when all white balls are identical and all black balls are identical.



Here, $^6C_i$ denotes the combination of $i$ different things from 6 different objects, doesn't it? How can that be used here?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$





An urn contains $6$ white and $4$ black balls. A fair die is rolled
and that number of balls are chosen from the urn. Find the probability
that the balls selected are white.




I know the basic way to go about solving the problem.



Let $W$ be the event of finally drawing all white balls. Let $P(n)$ denote the probability of appearance of $n$ on the die.



We want:
$$P(W) = P(1)P(Wmid 1)+ P(2)P(Wmid 2)+dots implies P(W) = dfrac16left(sum_i=1^6P(Wmid i)right)$$



Now, I am actually facing trouble in computing $P(W/i)$. I saw author's method and in it he has used $P(Wmid i) = dfrac^6C_i^10C_i$



but I fail to understand how that can be true when all white balls are identical and all black balls are identical.



Here, $^6C_i$ denotes the combination of $i$ different things from 6 different objects, doesn't it? How can that be used here?







probability combinatorics






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Nov 14 '18 at 16:27









Aloizio Macedo

23.6k23987




23.6k23987










asked Nov 14 '18 at 7:52









AbcdAbcd

3,03831235




3,03831235











  • $begingroup$
    Doesn't it look pretty much as a Hypergeometric distribution were the number of draws is a rv? $K=6$, $N=10$, $n=k$ is a random variable. Does it make any sense to you?
    $endgroup$
    – Ramiro Scorolli
    Nov 14 '18 at 8:13










  • $begingroup$
    I don't know what's a hypergeometric distribution @RamiroScorolli
    $endgroup$
    – Abcd
    Nov 14 '18 at 8:13










  • $begingroup$
    Basically you have $N$ balls(10 balls in total), $K$ represent success (6 white balls), you draw $n$ balls (where n is the number obtained with the dice) and you are expecting $k$ successes. (basically n cause you want all to be white). en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergeometric_distribution
    $endgroup$
    – Ramiro Scorolli
    Nov 14 '18 at 8:20










  • $begingroup$
    I'm not completely sure but I think that this could be the $P(W/I)$ you are looking for
    $endgroup$
    – Ramiro Scorolli
    Nov 14 '18 at 8:20










  • $begingroup$
    How about something similar with a smaller amount of balls? If you have two identical black balls and an otherwise similar but white ball in a bag, and you pull out one in random, what's the probability of getting a black ball? Is it 1/2 because there are only two colors (and you couldn't tell the black ones apart)?
    $endgroup$
    – ilkkachu
    Nov 14 '18 at 14:43
















  • $begingroup$
    Doesn't it look pretty much as a Hypergeometric distribution were the number of draws is a rv? $K=6$, $N=10$, $n=k$ is a random variable. Does it make any sense to you?
    $endgroup$
    – Ramiro Scorolli
    Nov 14 '18 at 8:13










  • $begingroup$
    I don't know what's a hypergeometric distribution @RamiroScorolli
    $endgroup$
    – Abcd
    Nov 14 '18 at 8:13










  • $begingroup$
    Basically you have $N$ balls(10 balls in total), $K$ represent success (6 white balls), you draw $n$ balls (where n is the number obtained with the dice) and you are expecting $k$ successes. (basically n cause you want all to be white). en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergeometric_distribution
    $endgroup$
    – Ramiro Scorolli
    Nov 14 '18 at 8:20










  • $begingroup$
    I'm not completely sure but I think that this could be the $P(W/I)$ you are looking for
    $endgroup$
    – Ramiro Scorolli
    Nov 14 '18 at 8:20










  • $begingroup$
    How about something similar with a smaller amount of balls? If you have two identical black balls and an otherwise similar but white ball in a bag, and you pull out one in random, what's the probability of getting a black ball? Is it 1/2 because there are only two colors (and you couldn't tell the black ones apart)?
    $endgroup$
    – ilkkachu
    Nov 14 '18 at 14:43















$begingroup$
Doesn't it look pretty much as a Hypergeometric distribution were the number of draws is a rv? $K=6$, $N=10$, $n=k$ is a random variable. Does it make any sense to you?
$endgroup$
– Ramiro Scorolli
Nov 14 '18 at 8:13




$begingroup$
Doesn't it look pretty much as a Hypergeometric distribution were the number of draws is a rv? $K=6$, $N=10$, $n=k$ is a random variable. Does it make any sense to you?
$endgroup$
– Ramiro Scorolli
Nov 14 '18 at 8:13












$begingroup$
I don't know what's a hypergeometric distribution @RamiroScorolli
$endgroup$
– Abcd
Nov 14 '18 at 8:13




$begingroup$
I don't know what's a hypergeometric distribution @RamiroScorolli
$endgroup$
– Abcd
Nov 14 '18 at 8:13












$begingroup$
Basically you have $N$ balls(10 balls in total), $K$ represent success (6 white balls), you draw $n$ balls (where n is the number obtained with the dice) and you are expecting $k$ successes. (basically n cause you want all to be white). en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergeometric_distribution
$endgroup$
– Ramiro Scorolli
Nov 14 '18 at 8:20




$begingroup$
Basically you have $N$ balls(10 balls in total), $K$ represent success (6 white balls), you draw $n$ balls (where n is the number obtained with the dice) and you are expecting $k$ successes. (basically n cause you want all to be white). en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergeometric_distribution
$endgroup$
– Ramiro Scorolli
Nov 14 '18 at 8:20












$begingroup$
I'm not completely sure but I think that this could be the $P(W/I)$ you are looking for
$endgroup$
– Ramiro Scorolli
Nov 14 '18 at 8:20




$begingroup$
I'm not completely sure but I think that this could be the $P(W/I)$ you are looking for
$endgroup$
– Ramiro Scorolli
Nov 14 '18 at 8:20












$begingroup$
How about something similar with a smaller amount of balls? If you have two identical black balls and an otherwise similar but white ball in a bag, and you pull out one in random, what's the probability of getting a black ball? Is it 1/2 because there are only two colors (and you couldn't tell the black ones apart)?
$endgroup$
– ilkkachu
Nov 14 '18 at 14:43




$begingroup$
How about something similar with a smaller amount of balls? If you have two identical black balls and an otherwise similar but white ball in a bag, and you pull out one in random, what's the probability of getting a black ball? Is it 1/2 because there are only two colors (and you couldn't tell the black ones apart)?
$endgroup$
– ilkkachu
Nov 14 '18 at 14:43










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















6












$begingroup$

  • The probability of drawing $i$ white balls is the probability of drawing a white ball and then (without replacement) drawing a second white ball, and so on up to $i$


  • The first ball drawn has a probability of $frac610$ of being white


  • Given that the first ball drawn is white, the second ball drawn has a probability of $frac59$ of being white


  • An so on up to the $i$th ball having a probability of $frac6-i+110-i+1$ of being white


  • So the probability all $i$ balls drawn are white is $$frac6 times 5 times cdots times(6-i+1)10 times 9 times cdots times(10-i+1) = dfracfrac6!(6-i)!frac10!(10-i)! = dfracfrac6!(6-i)!i!frac10!(10-i)!i! = dfrac^6C_i^10C_i$$






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Wow, this is amazing.
    $endgroup$
    – Abcd
    Nov 14 '18 at 8:18










  • $begingroup$
    So does this also imply that considering them as distinct is a sort of "trick" that is always going to work?
    $endgroup$
    – Abcd
    Nov 14 '18 at 8:22










  • $begingroup$
    @Abcd If you are going to use a counting calculation, then you want each event to be of equal probability, and treating the balls as physically distinct even when they look the same does this. Otherwise you risk saying that the probability of all white when $i=6$ might be higher than when $i=4$, since when $i=6$ you can get $4$, $5$ or $6$ white balls while with $i=4$ you can get $0$, $1$, $2$, $3$ or $4$ white balls; you need to be able say what the differing probabilities of the various possible outcomes are
    $endgroup$
    – Henry
    Nov 14 '18 at 8:55


















4












$begingroup$

If you draw the $i$ balls sequentially $$P(Wmid i)=frac610cdotfrac59cdotsfrac6-i+110-i+1$$
If you draw the $i$ balls simultaneously
$$P(Wmid i)=fracdbinom6icdotdbinom40dbinom10i$$ Now, can you convince yourself that these two are equivalent?






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$




















    4












    $begingroup$

    Since I don't see it anywhere, let me address this part of your question, rather than specific case:




    how that can be true when all blue balls are identical and all black balls are identical.



    Here, $^6C_i$ denotes the combination of $i$ different things from 6 different objects, doesn't it? How can that be used here?




    Let's make a simple thought experiment. Let's say that rather than having indistinguishable white and black balls you have 10 balls numbered 1 to 10. Balls numbered 1 to 6 are white and those numbered 7 to 10 are black.



    Now you have 6 white balls and 4 black balls that are distinguishable. How does that change your probability?



    The numbers on balls change nothing in probability as long as the only thing you're concerned is ball colour. The resulting probability has to be the same as if there were no numbers. We may simply ignore the numbers on the balls and follow the original problem. We still have 6 white balls and 4 black balls so the old approach holds. Whatever other way you count the probability it has to provide the same result.



    But now your balls are distinguishable so you can apply methods specific to distinguishable balls, specifically use combination. The results, as shown earlier will be the same.



    This is why to indistinguishable balls you can always apply approach "Let's assume the balls are distinguishable..."






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$




















      1












      $begingroup$

      Let me answer from a different direction.



      The reason you must use the equations which treat the balls as distinguishable is that thousands of repeated experiments have shown that the statistical behavior of all macroscopic objects is that of distinguishable items. There is no "proof" of this, since it's a physical reality. (by comparison, Bosons often do act as indistinguishable, leading to cool stuff in the super-cold regime).



      Now, in all statistics, the wording of the question is critical (see arguments about the Monty Hall problem!). If your teacher says "Assume all balls of a given color are truly indistinguishable," then it's a theoretical problem and you basically divide by the number of permutations of distinguishable objects. But unless indistinguishability is specifically given as a premise, objects are distinguishable.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$












        Your Answer





        StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
        return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function ()
        StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix)
        StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
        );
        );
        , "mathjax-editing");

        StackExchange.ready(function()
        var channelOptions =
        tags: "".split(" "),
        id: "69"
        ;
        initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

        StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
        // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
        if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
        StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
        createEditor();
        );

        else
        createEditor();

        );

        function createEditor()
        StackExchange.prepareEditor(
        heartbeatType: 'answer',
        autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
        convertImagesToLinks: true,
        noModals: true,
        showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
        reputationToPostImages: 10,
        bindNavPrevention: true,
        postfix: "",
        imageUploader:
        brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
        contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
        allowUrls: true
        ,
        noCode: true, onDemand: true,
        discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
        ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
        );



        );













        draft saved

        draft discarded


















        StackExchange.ready(
        function ()
        StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f2997942%2fprobability-concepts-how-can-balls-of-same-colour-be-distinguishable%23new-answer', 'question_page');

        );

        Post as a guest















        Required, but never shown

























        4 Answers
        4






        active

        oldest

        votes








        4 Answers
        4






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes









        6












        $begingroup$

        • The probability of drawing $i$ white balls is the probability of drawing a white ball and then (without replacement) drawing a second white ball, and so on up to $i$


        • The first ball drawn has a probability of $frac610$ of being white


        • Given that the first ball drawn is white, the second ball drawn has a probability of $frac59$ of being white


        • An so on up to the $i$th ball having a probability of $frac6-i+110-i+1$ of being white


        • So the probability all $i$ balls drawn are white is $$frac6 times 5 times cdots times(6-i+1)10 times 9 times cdots times(10-i+1) = dfracfrac6!(6-i)!frac10!(10-i)! = dfracfrac6!(6-i)!i!frac10!(10-i)!i! = dfrac^6C_i^10C_i$$






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$








        • 1




          $begingroup$
          Wow, this is amazing.
          $endgroup$
          – Abcd
          Nov 14 '18 at 8:18










        • $begingroup$
          So does this also imply that considering them as distinct is a sort of "trick" that is always going to work?
          $endgroup$
          – Abcd
          Nov 14 '18 at 8:22










        • $begingroup$
          @Abcd If you are going to use a counting calculation, then you want each event to be of equal probability, and treating the balls as physically distinct even when they look the same does this. Otherwise you risk saying that the probability of all white when $i=6$ might be higher than when $i=4$, since when $i=6$ you can get $4$, $5$ or $6$ white balls while with $i=4$ you can get $0$, $1$, $2$, $3$ or $4$ white balls; you need to be able say what the differing probabilities of the various possible outcomes are
          $endgroup$
          – Henry
          Nov 14 '18 at 8:55















        6












        $begingroup$

        • The probability of drawing $i$ white balls is the probability of drawing a white ball and then (without replacement) drawing a second white ball, and so on up to $i$


        • The first ball drawn has a probability of $frac610$ of being white


        • Given that the first ball drawn is white, the second ball drawn has a probability of $frac59$ of being white


        • An so on up to the $i$th ball having a probability of $frac6-i+110-i+1$ of being white


        • So the probability all $i$ balls drawn are white is $$frac6 times 5 times cdots times(6-i+1)10 times 9 times cdots times(10-i+1) = dfracfrac6!(6-i)!frac10!(10-i)! = dfracfrac6!(6-i)!i!frac10!(10-i)!i! = dfrac^6C_i^10C_i$$






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$








        • 1




          $begingroup$
          Wow, this is amazing.
          $endgroup$
          – Abcd
          Nov 14 '18 at 8:18










        • $begingroup$
          So does this also imply that considering them as distinct is a sort of "trick" that is always going to work?
          $endgroup$
          – Abcd
          Nov 14 '18 at 8:22










        • $begingroup$
          @Abcd If you are going to use a counting calculation, then you want each event to be of equal probability, and treating the balls as physically distinct even when they look the same does this. Otherwise you risk saying that the probability of all white when $i=6$ might be higher than when $i=4$, since when $i=6$ you can get $4$, $5$ or $6$ white balls while with $i=4$ you can get $0$, $1$, $2$, $3$ or $4$ white balls; you need to be able say what the differing probabilities of the various possible outcomes are
          $endgroup$
          – Henry
          Nov 14 '18 at 8:55













        6












        6








        6





        $begingroup$

        • The probability of drawing $i$ white balls is the probability of drawing a white ball and then (without replacement) drawing a second white ball, and so on up to $i$


        • The first ball drawn has a probability of $frac610$ of being white


        • Given that the first ball drawn is white, the second ball drawn has a probability of $frac59$ of being white


        • An so on up to the $i$th ball having a probability of $frac6-i+110-i+1$ of being white


        • So the probability all $i$ balls drawn are white is $$frac6 times 5 times cdots times(6-i+1)10 times 9 times cdots times(10-i+1) = dfracfrac6!(6-i)!frac10!(10-i)! = dfracfrac6!(6-i)!i!frac10!(10-i)!i! = dfrac^6C_i^10C_i$$






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$



        • The probability of drawing $i$ white balls is the probability of drawing a white ball and then (without replacement) drawing a second white ball, and so on up to $i$


        • The first ball drawn has a probability of $frac610$ of being white


        • Given that the first ball drawn is white, the second ball drawn has a probability of $frac59$ of being white


        • An so on up to the $i$th ball having a probability of $frac6-i+110-i+1$ of being white


        • So the probability all $i$ balls drawn are white is $$frac6 times 5 times cdots times(6-i+1)10 times 9 times cdots times(10-i+1) = dfracfrac6!(6-i)!frac10!(10-i)! = dfracfrac6!(6-i)!i!frac10!(10-i)!i! = dfrac^6C_i^10C_i$$







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered Nov 14 '18 at 8:16









        HenryHenry

        100k480165




        100k480165







        • 1




          $begingroup$
          Wow, this is amazing.
          $endgroup$
          – Abcd
          Nov 14 '18 at 8:18










        • $begingroup$
          So does this also imply that considering them as distinct is a sort of "trick" that is always going to work?
          $endgroup$
          – Abcd
          Nov 14 '18 at 8:22










        • $begingroup$
          @Abcd If you are going to use a counting calculation, then you want each event to be of equal probability, and treating the balls as physically distinct even when they look the same does this. Otherwise you risk saying that the probability of all white when $i=6$ might be higher than when $i=4$, since when $i=6$ you can get $4$, $5$ or $6$ white balls while with $i=4$ you can get $0$, $1$, $2$, $3$ or $4$ white balls; you need to be able say what the differing probabilities of the various possible outcomes are
          $endgroup$
          – Henry
          Nov 14 '18 at 8:55












        • 1




          $begingroup$
          Wow, this is amazing.
          $endgroup$
          – Abcd
          Nov 14 '18 at 8:18










        • $begingroup$
          So does this also imply that considering them as distinct is a sort of "trick" that is always going to work?
          $endgroup$
          – Abcd
          Nov 14 '18 at 8:22










        • $begingroup$
          @Abcd If you are going to use a counting calculation, then you want each event to be of equal probability, and treating the balls as physically distinct even when they look the same does this. Otherwise you risk saying that the probability of all white when $i=6$ might be higher than when $i=4$, since when $i=6$ you can get $4$, $5$ or $6$ white balls while with $i=4$ you can get $0$, $1$, $2$, $3$ or $4$ white balls; you need to be able say what the differing probabilities of the various possible outcomes are
          $endgroup$
          – Henry
          Nov 14 '18 at 8:55







        1




        1




        $begingroup$
        Wow, this is amazing.
        $endgroup$
        – Abcd
        Nov 14 '18 at 8:18




        $begingroup$
        Wow, this is amazing.
        $endgroup$
        – Abcd
        Nov 14 '18 at 8:18












        $begingroup$
        So does this also imply that considering them as distinct is a sort of "trick" that is always going to work?
        $endgroup$
        – Abcd
        Nov 14 '18 at 8:22




        $begingroup$
        So does this also imply that considering them as distinct is a sort of "trick" that is always going to work?
        $endgroup$
        – Abcd
        Nov 14 '18 at 8:22












        $begingroup$
        @Abcd If you are going to use a counting calculation, then you want each event to be of equal probability, and treating the balls as physically distinct even when they look the same does this. Otherwise you risk saying that the probability of all white when $i=6$ might be higher than when $i=4$, since when $i=6$ you can get $4$, $5$ or $6$ white balls while with $i=4$ you can get $0$, $1$, $2$, $3$ or $4$ white balls; you need to be able say what the differing probabilities of the various possible outcomes are
        $endgroup$
        – Henry
        Nov 14 '18 at 8:55




        $begingroup$
        @Abcd If you are going to use a counting calculation, then you want each event to be of equal probability, and treating the balls as physically distinct even when they look the same does this. Otherwise you risk saying that the probability of all white when $i=6$ might be higher than when $i=4$, since when $i=6$ you can get $4$, $5$ or $6$ white balls while with $i=4$ you can get $0$, $1$, $2$, $3$ or $4$ white balls; you need to be able say what the differing probabilities of the various possible outcomes are
        $endgroup$
        – Henry
        Nov 14 '18 at 8:55











        4












        $begingroup$

        If you draw the $i$ balls sequentially $$P(Wmid i)=frac610cdotfrac59cdotsfrac6-i+110-i+1$$
        If you draw the $i$ balls simultaneously
        $$P(Wmid i)=fracdbinom6icdotdbinom40dbinom10i$$ Now, can you convince yourself that these two are equivalent?






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$

















          4












          $begingroup$

          If you draw the $i$ balls sequentially $$P(Wmid i)=frac610cdotfrac59cdotsfrac6-i+110-i+1$$
          If you draw the $i$ balls simultaneously
          $$P(Wmid i)=fracdbinom6icdotdbinom40dbinom10i$$ Now, can you convince yourself that these two are equivalent?






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$















            4












            4








            4





            $begingroup$

            If you draw the $i$ balls sequentially $$P(Wmid i)=frac610cdotfrac59cdotsfrac6-i+110-i+1$$
            If you draw the $i$ balls simultaneously
            $$P(Wmid i)=fracdbinom6icdotdbinom40dbinom10i$$ Now, can you convince yourself that these two are equivalent?






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$



            If you draw the $i$ balls sequentially $$P(Wmid i)=frac610cdotfrac59cdotsfrac6-i+110-i+1$$
            If you draw the $i$ balls simultaneously
            $$P(Wmid i)=fracdbinom6icdotdbinom40dbinom10i$$ Now, can you convince yourself that these two are equivalent?







            share|cite|improve this answer












            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer










            answered Nov 14 '18 at 8:17









            Jimmy R.Jimmy R.

            33.1k42257




            33.1k42257





















                4












                $begingroup$

                Since I don't see it anywhere, let me address this part of your question, rather than specific case:




                how that can be true when all blue balls are identical and all black balls are identical.



                Here, $^6C_i$ denotes the combination of $i$ different things from 6 different objects, doesn't it? How can that be used here?




                Let's make a simple thought experiment. Let's say that rather than having indistinguishable white and black balls you have 10 balls numbered 1 to 10. Balls numbered 1 to 6 are white and those numbered 7 to 10 are black.



                Now you have 6 white balls and 4 black balls that are distinguishable. How does that change your probability?



                The numbers on balls change nothing in probability as long as the only thing you're concerned is ball colour. The resulting probability has to be the same as if there were no numbers. We may simply ignore the numbers on the balls and follow the original problem. We still have 6 white balls and 4 black balls so the old approach holds. Whatever other way you count the probability it has to provide the same result.



                But now your balls are distinguishable so you can apply methods specific to distinguishable balls, specifically use combination. The results, as shown earlier will be the same.



                This is why to indistinguishable balls you can always apply approach "Let's assume the balls are distinguishable..."






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$

















                  4












                  $begingroup$

                  Since I don't see it anywhere, let me address this part of your question, rather than specific case:




                  how that can be true when all blue balls are identical and all black balls are identical.



                  Here, $^6C_i$ denotes the combination of $i$ different things from 6 different objects, doesn't it? How can that be used here?




                  Let's make a simple thought experiment. Let's say that rather than having indistinguishable white and black balls you have 10 balls numbered 1 to 10. Balls numbered 1 to 6 are white and those numbered 7 to 10 are black.



                  Now you have 6 white balls and 4 black balls that are distinguishable. How does that change your probability?



                  The numbers on balls change nothing in probability as long as the only thing you're concerned is ball colour. The resulting probability has to be the same as if there were no numbers. We may simply ignore the numbers on the balls and follow the original problem. We still have 6 white balls and 4 black balls so the old approach holds. Whatever other way you count the probability it has to provide the same result.



                  But now your balls are distinguishable so you can apply methods specific to distinguishable balls, specifically use combination. The results, as shown earlier will be the same.



                  This is why to indistinguishable balls you can always apply approach "Let's assume the balls are distinguishable..."






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$















                    4












                    4








                    4





                    $begingroup$

                    Since I don't see it anywhere, let me address this part of your question, rather than specific case:




                    how that can be true when all blue balls are identical and all black balls are identical.



                    Here, $^6C_i$ denotes the combination of $i$ different things from 6 different objects, doesn't it? How can that be used here?




                    Let's make a simple thought experiment. Let's say that rather than having indistinguishable white and black balls you have 10 balls numbered 1 to 10. Balls numbered 1 to 6 are white and those numbered 7 to 10 are black.



                    Now you have 6 white balls and 4 black balls that are distinguishable. How does that change your probability?



                    The numbers on balls change nothing in probability as long as the only thing you're concerned is ball colour. The resulting probability has to be the same as if there were no numbers. We may simply ignore the numbers on the balls and follow the original problem. We still have 6 white balls and 4 black balls so the old approach holds. Whatever other way you count the probability it has to provide the same result.



                    But now your balls are distinguishable so you can apply methods specific to distinguishable balls, specifically use combination. The results, as shown earlier will be the same.



                    This is why to indistinguishable balls you can always apply approach "Let's assume the balls are distinguishable..."






                    share|cite|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$



                    Since I don't see it anywhere, let me address this part of your question, rather than specific case:




                    how that can be true when all blue balls are identical and all black balls are identical.



                    Here, $^6C_i$ denotes the combination of $i$ different things from 6 different objects, doesn't it? How can that be used here?




                    Let's make a simple thought experiment. Let's say that rather than having indistinguishable white and black balls you have 10 balls numbered 1 to 10. Balls numbered 1 to 6 are white and those numbered 7 to 10 are black.



                    Now you have 6 white balls and 4 black balls that are distinguishable. How does that change your probability?



                    The numbers on balls change nothing in probability as long as the only thing you're concerned is ball colour. The resulting probability has to be the same as if there were no numbers. We may simply ignore the numbers on the balls and follow the original problem. We still have 6 white balls and 4 black balls so the old approach holds. Whatever other way you count the probability it has to provide the same result.



                    But now your balls are distinguishable so you can apply methods specific to distinguishable balls, specifically use combination. The results, as shown earlier will be the same.



                    This is why to indistinguishable balls you can always apply approach "Let's assume the balls are distinguishable..."







                    share|cite|improve this answer












                    share|cite|improve this answer



                    share|cite|improve this answer










                    answered Nov 14 '18 at 12:41









                    IsterIster

                    2216




                    2216





















                        1












                        $begingroup$

                        Let me answer from a different direction.



                        The reason you must use the equations which treat the balls as distinguishable is that thousands of repeated experiments have shown that the statistical behavior of all macroscopic objects is that of distinguishable items. There is no "proof" of this, since it's a physical reality. (by comparison, Bosons often do act as indistinguishable, leading to cool stuff in the super-cold regime).



                        Now, in all statistics, the wording of the question is critical (see arguments about the Monty Hall problem!). If your teacher says "Assume all balls of a given color are truly indistinguishable," then it's a theoretical problem and you basically divide by the number of permutations of distinguishable objects. But unless indistinguishability is specifically given as a premise, objects are distinguishable.






                        share|cite|improve this answer









                        $endgroup$

















                          1












                          $begingroup$

                          Let me answer from a different direction.



                          The reason you must use the equations which treat the balls as distinguishable is that thousands of repeated experiments have shown that the statistical behavior of all macroscopic objects is that of distinguishable items. There is no "proof" of this, since it's a physical reality. (by comparison, Bosons often do act as indistinguishable, leading to cool stuff in the super-cold regime).



                          Now, in all statistics, the wording of the question is critical (see arguments about the Monty Hall problem!). If your teacher says "Assume all balls of a given color are truly indistinguishable," then it's a theoretical problem and you basically divide by the number of permutations of distinguishable objects. But unless indistinguishability is specifically given as a premise, objects are distinguishable.






                          share|cite|improve this answer









                          $endgroup$















                            1












                            1








                            1





                            $begingroup$

                            Let me answer from a different direction.



                            The reason you must use the equations which treat the balls as distinguishable is that thousands of repeated experiments have shown that the statistical behavior of all macroscopic objects is that of distinguishable items. There is no "proof" of this, since it's a physical reality. (by comparison, Bosons often do act as indistinguishable, leading to cool stuff in the super-cold regime).



                            Now, in all statistics, the wording of the question is critical (see arguments about the Monty Hall problem!). If your teacher says "Assume all balls of a given color are truly indistinguishable," then it's a theoretical problem and you basically divide by the number of permutations of distinguishable objects. But unless indistinguishability is specifically given as a premise, objects are distinguishable.






                            share|cite|improve this answer









                            $endgroup$



                            Let me answer from a different direction.



                            The reason you must use the equations which treat the balls as distinguishable is that thousands of repeated experiments have shown that the statistical behavior of all macroscopic objects is that of distinguishable items. There is no "proof" of this, since it's a physical reality. (by comparison, Bosons often do act as indistinguishable, leading to cool stuff in the super-cold regime).



                            Now, in all statistics, the wording of the question is critical (see arguments about the Monty Hall problem!). If your teacher says "Assume all balls of a given color are truly indistinguishable," then it's a theoretical problem and you basically divide by the number of permutations of distinguishable objects. But unless indistinguishability is specifically given as a premise, objects are distinguishable.







                            share|cite|improve this answer












                            share|cite|improve this answer



                            share|cite|improve this answer










                            answered Nov 14 '18 at 13:40









                            Carl WitthoftCarl Witthoft

                            32618




                            32618



























                                draft saved

                                draft discarded
















































                                Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Stack Exchange!


                                • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                                But avoid


                                • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                                • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

                                Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                                To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                                draft saved


                                draft discarded














                                StackExchange.ready(
                                function ()
                                StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f2997942%2fprobability-concepts-how-can-balls-of-same-colour-be-distinguishable%23new-answer', 'question_page');

                                );

                                Post as a guest















                                Required, but never shown





















































                                Required, but never shown














                                Required, but never shown












                                Required, but never shown







                                Required, but never shown

































                                Required, but never shown














                                Required, but never shown












                                Required, but never shown







                                Required, but never shown







                                這個網誌中的熱門文章

                                How to read a connectionString WITH PROVIDER in .NET Core?

                                In R, how to develop a multiplot heatmap.2 figure showing key labels successfully

                                Museum of Modern and Contemporary Art of Trento and Rovereto